Remember Remember...

[Meer]

So I know it's the 'in' thing to be all about Guy Fawkes lately, but I think it needs to be said given the current state of Governments both Provincial and Federal, Canadian or American.

Another November 5th is ending in about 5 minutes from now and though most people probably didn't think of it, I hope you do when you read this. People sit around and complain that the government sucks, that they won't bother vote because all the parties are corrupt, horrible and petty. They're that way because we let them be that way, they get away with it time and again so why wouldn't they just keep doing it? Would you stop if everyone let you get paid $75,000+ a year to do little to no real work, and bungle things so badly that the city itself is in financial danger? McGuinty is still planning to go ahead with his HST, does anyone here like it? ... Has anyone even written him an email saying so? This guy doesn't tell us what to do, we tell HIM what to do. We're his boss and fuck if I'm going to just let this idiot ruin the province's economy without at least hearing what I think of him. Will it change anything? No. Of course not. I'm one person. But we, we are many people.

If I can indulge myself for a moment and quote V, a movie that I really do feel deserves to be held up as the Wachowski brothers' premiere piece more than the Matrix..

People shouldn't be afraid of their Governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.

Hope everyone had a good November 5th.

[Ramses]

thats a very quaint dream i respect your right to beleive in.

they don't get away with these things because we let them. they get away with these things because governments and nation states haven't been the most significant power for two or three hundred years. governments are condoms corporate megaliths put on before fucking everyone to avoid direct contact.

this is not generic counterculture bullshit nonsense. i spent two years almost full time researching (not on the internet, using serious university library resources) who really controls things. as a history student, with very strict criteria on different values of different sources. what i've discovered as reliable and factual terrifies me to my bones. what i suspect, or is predicted.... there are no words for it. i don't even mention those things to people. i sound 'crazy' enough already.

gigantic, world-consuming congolmerates of international banks, insurance companies, and holding companies own and control everything you have ever put your eyes on, and ever will. they own you too. dupont, rothschild, bilderberg, krupp, rockefeller. these are families and organizations that terrify walmart, bank of america, gazprom, exxon mobil, and any other company people normally think of as 'huge'.

just take a look at the appalling influence of the Council on Foreign Relations. or what the American Federal Reserve really is. cause it sure as hell isn't part of the government.

its companies now. its all companies. specifically banks and the CFR. governments are a hilarious anachronism left in place to give us the impression we can make an iota of difference if we all just band together.

its all headed towards one gigantic central control. one government. one bank. we are becoming totally integrated slaves and servants of a frightening machine. and not because of a few evil men. evil men don't exist. we're going that way despite most people's intentions as if its some kind of inevitable dunesque destiny. we are a species reorganizing itself to deal with changes which are mostly demographic.

think its all just numbers and money? what about the food you eat every day? organic or not, big chain, small grocery, even produce grown in your own backyard. fuck, even a cow grazing in your yard. guess who? Monsanto. perhaps the scariest organization in human history. check them out. CBC had a documentary on them. and thats what we're ALLOWED to know. god knows what we're not...

sorry man, i totally respect your views, but even just the concept of the government still existing is a bad joke. Brave New World, 1984, whatever literary reference anyone wants to make, its happening. inevitably. on a species-wide across-the-board level around the world.

[Meer]

I don't agree, man.

I can believe what you're saying is true insofar as companies run a lot more than people think, but I don't think it'll ever reach an end-game scenario where people are openly just herded as sheep (1984).

Companies are powerful, it's true... until people, pushed to the brink, just go and stomp the shit out of them. There's a lot more people in the world than there are Rockafellers.

[Pooshie]

Brave New World, 1984, whatever literary reference anyone wants to make, its happening. inevitably. on a species-wide across-the-board level around the world.

The truth isn't being hidden from us. Instead, it is drowned in a sea of irrelevance.
Books are not being banned or burned. Instead, no one wishes to read one.
No one is depriving us of information. We have been reduced to passivity and egotism.
We haven't become a captive culture, we have become a trivial culture.
We are not controlled through pain. We are controlled through pleasure.
Some have feared that what we hate would destroy us. When what we love is ruining us.

-Paraphrased from "Amusing ourselves to Death" by Neil Postman


I think I'm leaning towards Meer's views a little, in that I do think companies are what's generating this trivial culture we can't (or won't) break away from. But to go as far as to say that there will at one point be one giant company controlling everything, I don't think I buy that right now. At worst (And if you think a little about it, this is still a pretty bad scenario) companies will always control our lives to a certain extent, but /one/ single company will never control everything.

Whatever the scenario, I'm not worried. I'll find a way to be happy in whatever world I live in.

[Indref]

I completely missed Nov 5th and now I feel ill.

=[

[Shaedyn]

Let's all celebrate catholic conspiracies! Yay! I hate V for Vendetta because the irony of it all is lost on North American audiences. The "Remember, remember the 5th of November" is not some anti government saying. It's pro government. Guy Fawkes was an asshat and his plot was so terribly misconceived it's comical.

Politicians are scared shitless of their public. Just look at how fast they destroy themselves as soon as the "lose face" to us.

Big mega corps only control foreign policy. Which is scary as hell. But Domestically, the people be still in power (at least here). (And even still, this is tame compared to 200 years ago. Did you know the first use of the Maxim Machine gun was by a corperation in a private war? ) There are no Cecil Rhodes in todays world. There's people who wish they were him, but they are a far cry from that industrial tyrant.

[Meer]

. The "Remember, remember the 5th of November" is not some anti government saying. It's pro government.

A saying's meaning is derived from the majority's perception of it. It's typically seen as an anti-government rhyme that incites memories of the Gunpowder Treason and what was nearly done. Thus, it's an anti-government rhyme despite what the original intent of it was.

Words are just verbal symbols to represent ideas and objects. If I said "Bird" and it incited thoughts of a truck in 99% of the population, who's wrong? The people who relate Bird to a truck, or the 1% of people who relate Bird to a feathered flying animal?

As for him being an idiot? I didn't know the guy, but 404 years later he's still a part of our cultural consciousness because he tried to do what he thought was right and end the persecution of Catholics. That's way more of an achievement than either you or I will ever accomplish.

What he intended to do, or what his intentions were are irrelevant in the face of people's views of what they want him to be.

Politicians are scared shitless of their public. Just look at how fast they destroy themselves as soon as the "lose face" to us.

Yeah, McGuinty is probably sitting at home shitting his pants while pushing levy after levy and tax after tax on us.

Ditto with the City Council.

Big mega corps only control foreign policy.

How so?

[Shaedyn]

Pushing tax after tax isn't losing public face. I point to all the republicans in the states who get accused of being gay, for instance. It's just society cares more about drama at this point in time then good governing. If people started to care about taxes- like REALLY care about taxes enough to get excited about it, then McGuinty would be shitting his pants. 'Cept people don't care. That's not 1984 that's just voter apathy.

Corps can't really influence foreign policy. I realized how stupid of a comment that is and how much more complex and not nearly so broad the idea I wanted to get across was. I'm sure I can't do the theme justice though so I'll willingly and cowardly back down from this challenge to explain myself and simply reference a book that will explain things far better than I ever could (and yes I realize this still fails to make my first point which is ludicrously wrong) - Book = Confessions of Economic Hitman. Czech that out, pretty much explains what I was trying to say and failing at.

[tecywiz121]

First, I just want to point out that the arguments and ideas in this thread are excellent, and the fact that we can speak freely and openly about our political views is a testimony to exactly how free we are as a people, and how unafraid our governments are that we do it.

Government or mega-corporations, some Orwellian (or perhaps Utopian) future, does it really matter? Can anyone point out the differences between Orwell's 1984 and the present?

Its easy right?

The inhabitants of Oceania had no freedom at all, and lived constantly under the surveillance of a telescreen and the Thought Police. We, on the other hand, are free from surveillance and are free to discuss whatever ideas we want.

Now, consider the viewpoint from which 1984 was written. Winston, the main character, was at heart a rebel. Someone truly unhappy with how society was functioning; someone who took the first steps in attempting to destroy said society. Who among us can say that they are a malcontent on the same level as Winston?

The internet, telephone and television are our telescreens. We allow them into our homes. No, not allow, we welcome them into our homes. We take them for granted as part of our lives, exactly like the vast majority of the inhabitants of 1984. Only Winston and Julia saw their telescreens as spies, instruments of evil.

The point of my long winded comparison is simply this: For the majority of people, does it really matter who is in power? Does it make any difference? Even if it does, how can we compare "styles" of governance when observable effects are either too global, or overshadowed by other events (eg H1N1, natural disasters, celebrity gossip, the list continues)?

[Ramses]

we are absolutely not free of surveillance. you've got to be kidding me.