The problem of academics as I see it.

[Meer]

I'm glad I went to university. It definately taught me "how to think" so to speak. I seriously see the world differently and I'd say in a better way thanks to university. That said, I find it funny though I have to go to college after so I can get a job. The peice of paper I get from university is worth 20,000 dollars in theory, but it's really worth near 0 practically.

Two reasons for that I've seen.

1) A lot of people seem to think B.A in Psych (for example) = Qualified to be a Psychologist. "I'm a history major, I'm going to be a historian!" unaware that to get anywhere in MOST University-geared courses you have to go into graduate studies of some form. A B.A isn't entirely worthless, but it's only the first part of what a true University education is supposed to be. It's like having one robot lion and still expecting to be able to form Voltron. Sure you have a robot lion which is pretty cool, but you need 4 more for it to kick some real ass.

2) Everyone and their dog goes to University now it seems, most because it's just what your parents tell you that you need to do now. I'm actually against lowering tuitions so anyone can go to University. Anyone already CAN go to University if they're serious about it, all you're going to do is devalue the education by making sure even the laziest bum can get a B.A... it's why High School diplomas aren't worth as much as they used to be. High School now is glorified babysitting, if you show up to class chances are you'll at least pass the course... very little REAL effort is needed to pass. (Note: To pass, didn't say anything about 'doing well'). I mean, I live next to an 'alternative high school', they go to school for 3 hours a day and get marks just for showing up. All this does is make sure everyone has a diploma, even if they don't deserve it.

I had to take OSAP for the upcoming winter semester, but everything before that (and after that) will be paid for out of my own pocket from working hard during the summer and makin' 'da monies. If I can pay for it from scratch (no parental financial assistance) anyone who seriously wants it can too.

And I'm not paying $20,000+ from my own hard earned income just so some lazy S.O.B that feels he has the God given right to have a B.A (but shouldn't have to pay or work for it) can get one too and make mine look worse.

Anyone seen those "Drop the fees for a poverty free Ontario!" ads? That's the biggest load of garbage I've ever seen, right up there with "we should raise minimum wage, then everyone will have more money!" It's not going to 'solve poverty' in any way. I imagine it'll probably just make it even worse as suddenly having a B.A will not only be worthless , but it'll probably just make most graduate degrees useless as well. People will find they have to go into Graduate studies in order to better themselves above the average worker and find better income. High School diplomas will become the new "Middle School diploma", B.A's will become the new High School Diplomas, and Graduate degrees will become the new B.A.

Problem solved fo' sho'.

Go Go Power Socialism! Making everyone equal by making everyone poor and helpless.

[Drajiel]

I have no problem with the tuition fees (even though Ontario apparently has the highest average tuition costs in Canada). My main problem is the cost of living. Unless you worked parttime all throughout high school and saved all that money, it's pretty friggen hard to find an affordable place to live in Ottawa/Toronto to attend college/uni at without breaking the bank. That's where my problem lies in the expenses department since it costs 2-4x your tuition (depending on your program) to live somewhere for eight months.
(now soon to cost a little more given OC Transpo wants to raise the price of Student monthly passes by a good 12%)

Anyways, as for the whole "If you leave for a year/two, you'll never go back", it's all a mind game in my opinion. If you want the education/credentials bad enough, you'll go back, unless you somehow end up blowing all your savings for the year you spend out of school, thus keeping you from being able to afford going back.

[SomeoneRandom_II]

But I can barely afford being there now!! I'm completely dry of cash! ;-;

...*hums* ...and we'll all float on...

[Daninator]

Two reasons for that I've seen.

1) A lot of people seem to think B.A in Psych (for example) = Qualified to be a Psychologist. "I'm a history major, I'm going to be a historian!" unaware that to get anywhere in MOST University-geared courses you have to go into graduate studies of some form. A B.A isn't entirely worthless, but it's only the first part of what a true University education is supposed to be. It's like having one robot lion and still expecting to be able to form Voltron. Sure you have a robot lion which is pretty cool, but you need 4 more for it to kick some real ass.

2) Everyone and their dog goes to University now it seems, most because it's just what your parents tell you that you need to do now. I'm actually against lowering tuitions so anyone can go to University. Anyone already CAN go to University if they're serious about it, all you're going to do is devalue the education by making sure even the laziest bum can get a B.A... it's why High School diplomas aren't worth as much as they used to be. High School now is glorified babysitting, if you show up to class chances are you'll at least pass the course... very little REAL effort is needed to pass. (Note: To pass, didn't say anything about 'doing well'). I mean, I live next to an 'alternative high school', they go to school for 3 hours a day and get marks just for showing up. All this does is make sure everyone has a diploma, even if they don't deserve it.

I had to take OSAP for the upcoming winter semester, but everything before that (and after that) will be paid for out of my own pocket from working hard during the summer and makin' 'da monies. If I can pay for it from scratch (no parental financial assistance) anyone who seriously wants it can too.

And I'm not paying $20,000+ from my own hard earned income just so some lazy S.O.B that feels he has the God given right to have a B.A (but shouldn't have to pay or work for it) can get one too and make mine look worse.

Anyone seen those "Drop the fees for a poverty free Ontario!" ads? That's the biggest load of garbage I've ever seen, right up there with "we should raise minimum wage, then everyone will have more money!" It's not going to 'solve poverty' in any way. I imagine it'll probably just make it even worse as suddenly having a B.A will not only be worthless , but it'll probably just make most graduate degrees useless as well. People will find they have to go into Graduate studies in order to better themselves above the average worker and find better income. High School diplomas will become the new "Middle School diploma", B.A's will become the new High School Diplomas, and Graduate degrees will become the new B.A.

Problem solved fo' sho'.

Go Go Power Socialism! Making everyone equal by making everyone poor and helpless.

I agree that the "drop fees for a poverty-free Ontario" things are quite ridiculous. Dropping fees will do very little to reduce poverty, simply because most poor people are in university.

However, I'm not so sure your reasons are accurate. For example, I have two friends: one went into English in university, and one went into journalism at Algonquin. Both got good grades. One got a job right out of post-secondary education, and one struggled to a job related to her field.

A college education, in both financial cost and time invested, is much less than a university education, and is easily reachable by anyone, yet, in terms of the job market, is much more highly valued because you were trained to do something specific, and you know exactly how to do it. It goes back to the reason the modern university was created in the first place: to teach the process of discovery.

Excepting in jobs related to research, that's not a very useful skill. So, yes, it's the person with a journalism diploma who did better in the job market.

Of course, universities have expanded a lot since then, and now offer many more job-centric degrees.

But what are the jobs that are always hiring? Trades. Canada suffers from a severe shortage of skilled tradespeople because of cultural stigmas associated with colleges and trades. Especially as we move to a society where more and more jobs are operating complex and sophisticated equipment, we're going to need more and more people who are skilled at operating that equipment.

I know I went into university knowing that my choice of a degree would not be useful to me in the job market. And it wasn't.

I don't think the problem is with socialism at all.

After all, Ireland's miraculous economic growth came when universities started to be free there. They went from a poor country (poorest in the EU when they joined) to the 6th richest per capita in the entire world, which is widely attributed to their knowledge-based economy, built off free education.

(Of course, Ireland is hardly a socialist country; they are more economically free than the United States.)

[Ramses]

ireland is a bad model for success.

they are totally boned right now.

[Daninator]

ireland is a bad model for success.

they are totally boned right now.

Their economy is suffering right now, but that's because of their rapid growth: all their current pain is in the construction sector because they experienced so much growth in the past 15 years. As an economy grows rapidly, construction is needed to build new buildings. If, suddenly, the demand for buildings decreases, then a lot of people go out of work. And then service jobs that depend on those jobs go out of work...

Besides, their economy is only as poor in overall GDP as it was in 2004. Even if you take the percentage increase from their total GDP in 1992 to their total GDP in 2009, their growth rate is still among the best in the world.

[SomeoneRandom_II]

Regardless of Ireland, I'd like to make a quiet little remark:

Yes, we should be putting a little more emphasis on trades and such now perceived as "lesser" jobs in our society so we don't topple over with too many bookworms and not enough practical workers!

...hmm... that probably wasn't that quiet... or little... but in short: I agree with the basic premise here.

[Ramses]

yes, agreed. and most people agree.
us 'lesser' workers mostly feel we deserve more pay for the kind of work we do, too. certainly vs the kind of work federal government union paperpushers do.

the toppling over you're referring to is already happening. except oddly enough its been happening very slowly and gradually over the last 15-20 years.

[SomeoneRandom_II]

I have a philosophy: Everything in balance. Too little or too much of anything will cause problems. Worst of all is how our society seems to work from what I've seen. We ride on a pendulum on many problems. When something hits critical levels, we swing back, aiming for the middle, but the momentum carries us to the other. But we can never seem to hit that balance. I wouldn't be surprised if this "pendulum effect" will apply here too, and we'll suddenly be deficient in paper pushers and have too many skilled workers in a few generations.

[Ramses]

ha. just wait till The Pendulum swings the other way and public homosexuality, the fandom, public drug culture and overt emotional baggage are no longer appreciated whatsoever. among many other things. give it five, maybe seven years at the very most.

don't think its gonna happen? tell france, england, syria, iran, cyprus, russia, egypt, italy, india, finland, or pretty much any country with a long history.

its coming. without doubt. the long term trends and records definitely agree.

enjoy the leniency while it lasts. no, really.

it won't be around forever.