Capital Furs

EDIT:  I'm not sure why I'm posting this.  Maybe it's a confession, or an apology.  Probably it's just me feeling down or 'emo'.  Whatever it is, I do honestly feel this is how the world actually works...and I've seen theories on it before.

Perhaps what I'm hoping for is someone that will disagree and be able to give me an example where I'm wrong, because I must admit...these beliefs are pretty damned depressing.

As for people that might be concerned with the tone or subject of this post...don't be.  I can be a manipulative bastard, and trying to earn sympathy when I'm feeling down isn't below me.  Getting a friend who shows some concern because of this post will cheapen it.  It'll make me wonder if I'm doing this for attention or affection.  Which is the sort of bullshit and hypocrisy that this post is about.  So, with that said... take it for what it's worth, and I'm fine.  I really don't want anyone to check up on me after reading this.
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"There's 10 kinds of people in the world.  Those that understand binary and those that don't."

I used to chuckle at that joke, and brush it off.  I'm not sure where the original phrase "There's two kinds of people in the world.  Those that..." comes from, and I never gave it much though.  Clearly there's more than one kind of person in the world.  Or two.  Or three.  Or a million.  

Right?  

So.  Surely, categorizing the entire population of the human race into a few very broad, very general groups is stupid.  And dangerous- we've seen events in history where labeling and stereotyping people has led to harm, murder, even genocide.  Labeling people is a bad thing.  As a Canadian, I should know the merits of multiculturalism right?  We're much better than the Americans and their melting pot approach.  Right?

Bullshit.  

The two words  "Human race" label us all together under one umbrella, and there are a few things that apply to each and every one of us.  We all require Oxygen to live.  We all bleed.  We all need to eat 'food' to produce energy.

And we are all selfish.  Every.  Single.  One.  Of. Us.  You, me, your family and every random Joe you pass on the way to the grocery store.  We all look out for #1, even if we claim and believe otherwise.  Don't think you're selfish? Might want to check up on the definition:

self⋅ish
   /ˈsɛlfɪʃ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sel-fish] Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

That's you.  That's me.  That's everyone.  The only real difference are the people who are honest, and acknowledge it; and those that delude themselves that they're not.  I'm usually the latter.  I'm a hypocrite, and it's not as evil or as complicated as people make it out to be.  Let's review, shall we?

hyp⋅o⋅crite
   /ˈhɪpəkrɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [hip-uh-krit] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

#2.  That's me.  Right there.  Now, how am I a hypocrite?  Some of you might be scratching your heads, or concerned by this post because after all, I seem like a good person right?  My humour could use some work most of the time, though it hits the right spot sometimes and earns an honest chuckle now and then.  I'm helpful- I listen to people, offer lifts sometimes when I can, show concern when someone is feeling down right?  I'm the big guy that likes to pretend he's protective and looks out for people.  Maybe for people like you.

Well here's where the hypocrisy comes in:  I don't do it for you.  I don't really care about if you're feeling down or not.  Oh, I certainly think I do at the time.  But here's the ugly truth:  When I help someone out- give them a hug when they're down, or cover for someone, or buy a gift... I'm not doing it for you.  

No.  Deep down, I'm doing it for me.

You see, I don't think I'm a good person.  Not really.  I don't like myself- I was never popular, or good at sports.  I never made friends easy.  People to rely on were hard to come by... so you know how I earned friends?  I bought them.  I helped them out.  I was 'generous'.  And in turn, I felt good.

Clearly, people smiling at me meant I was a good person.  People saying 'Thanks!' meant I must have done something right.  I made them happy...that's what 'good people' do, after all, right?    

...except 'good people' don't use others to make themselves feel better.  People aren't really generous, at least I wasn't; not really.  I cover someone for $10 and feel generous.  But what I'm really being is a hypocrite.  I'm not being generous, I'm buying a high.  I'm buying self delusion.  I'm exchanging money for the service of believing I'm a decent person.

And the kicker, the irony is that I'm using someone to do it.  'Good people' don't use others... right?  But that's what we're all doing.  Every charitable deed.  Every 'good act' has a deeper, selfish motive.  

We like to look down on the Stalins and Hitlers of the world and point out how a dictator or murderer was doing it for himself, despite his or her claims that he or she was doing it for the best of their people, or their country.  I ask you, though, how is that any different than someone that tries to cure diseases or help the homeless?  In both cases, they claim to be doing it to 'help people', while at the end of it all the result is going to be the same:  Their name in a history book and/or people who remember them.  In both cases, ultimately, it's done for themselves.  For fame.  To sleep at night.  Whatever the reason, it's a primal act of selfishness.

Still not with me?  Oh, you'll love this:

Love.

Is bullshit.  There.  I said it.  You love someone?  Really?  Why?

Is it because of their looks?  Because of how they make you feel?  What they provide for you?  How they improve your life?  Hey, all those questions are about you, isn't it?

Okay...how about what you do for them?  Oh, wait.  Damn.  That gives you a sense of being needed.  A place to be.  Scratch that then.  

How about this:  How many of you can think of someone that you deeply care about, and want them to be with someone else?  Surely you're not the best person in the world for them.  You have flaws.  There are people out there with less flaws.  I'd bet my money on it...and yet you probably don't want them to leave you for someone else.  

I think I'm starting to ramble, and I'm second guessing posting this, so I'm going to try and come to a conclusion before I lose my nerve.  We're not good people.  Everyone does things for themselves, even when they pretend they're doing it for someone else.  

Look at the stereotypical movies that centre around love.  Usually you have the love of the protagonist with some douche bag.  The douche bag is popular, and envied by everyone... and yet they're jerks.  Why?  Because they don't need to be 'good' for people to like them.  They don't need to use and buy people.

Then there's the protagonist.  He's overlooked...he's not popular.  He's not envied... but he is the 'good' guy.  He's 'honest'.  He's 'sweet'.  He actually 'cares' about the love of his life.  And in the end, he gets her because she  finally comes around and realizes how 'nice' he is.

So what can we conclude?  If you're not popular, not envied, not good at sports... you can't be a douchebag to get the girl you want.  You've got to buy her with generosity.  You've got to 'care' about her.  And in the end, you get what you want.  

In the end, it's all about you.

At least, that's how I am.  I try to look out for my friends, I try to care about them, and like to think I protect them.  I try to make them feel good, happier.  

And several times, that's backfired.  I've hurt people.  Made them feel awful or uncomfortable.  And... I've realized that my attempts at trying to do things for them isn't noble or chariable at all.  In fact, it's quite the opposite:  I'm using them.  And I'm not the only person like that.  We're all like that.  We're all selfish, and none of us are actually good people at all.

When all is said and done, it's about us being able to look at ourselves in the mirror and see a 'good' person.

Hard-wired into every creature on this planet is the instinct for self-preservation. You do what you can for others but in the end, the only person you can really help is yourself.

Ironklaw wrote:Hard-wired into every creature on this planet is the instinct for self-preservation. You do what you can for others but in the end, the only person you can really help is yourself.

Pretty much.  I suppose it doesn't mean people aren't 'good'...just requires a different definition.  Though it wouldn't sound as nice as we like to believe.  Ignorance really is bliss.

Duh :P.

I tell people what they need to hear, even if it hurts them.
I do the minimum necessary harm, and yet I do it.
I act towards my own purposes, but they do not gain me anything.
I don't care if everyone on the planet hates me, as long as I have saved one person from the insanity, not because I want to but because I can do nothing else.

If you believe every action on the planet is selfish, you will see every action on the planet as selfish. Doesn't mean that they are.
To say that everything that makes me smile is selfish is a shortsighted view in and of itself: mutual gain is more than personal gain.
'Love is bullshit'? Bullshit. When I make someone's life better and they make my life better, neither of us has lost. You could say we're both selfish, and both altruistic, all at the same time. Which is a contradiction, but that doesn't change the fact that we both have gained.

Amusingly, only a person acting selfish will really see themselves as selfish.
Because they see themselves only as an individual, and not as part of a society, a world, a microcosm, something far more complex.

Sid wrote:And we are all selfish.  Every.  Single.  One.  Of. Us.  You, me, your family and every random Joe you pass on the way to the grocery store.  We all look out for #1, even if we claim and believe otherwise.

Taking care of ourselves is not selfish, it is responsible.  Each is of us is ultimately responsible for our own well-being--it is the nature of existence.  A certain amount of self-preservation and well-being is not a bad thing and I think it is necessary for survival--keeping in mind that all things should be in moderation.  If you don't feed yourself you will die.  If you don't have shelter, you will die.  If you don't have motivation to live you will die.  If you can't bring yourself to roll-out of bed each day you will die.  I would say that selfishness comes into effect when we go into excess or by ignoring others well-being at our own peril.  Is it not true that we can benefit more by working together constructively and with eithics than anything we might accomplish apart or at odds?  The power of many directed toward the benefit of all would logically be superior to powers at odds canceling each other out.  It is important to realize that we must have respect for each other (ie. ethics/morals).  You would not want someone to mistreat you after all, thus, you must recognize that the only way to ensure mistreatment of yourself is minimized is to award the same kind of treatment to others.  Intelligent people will realize that this will ultimately benefit everyone.  :)

Well here's where the hypocrisy comes in:  I don't do it for you.  I don't really care about if you're feeling down or not.  Oh, I certainly think I do at the time.  But here's the ugly truth:  When I help someone out- give them a hug when they're down, or cover for someone, or buy a gift... I'm not doing it for you!  

No.  Deep down, I'm doing it for me.

You see, I don't think I'm a good person.  Not really.  I don't like myself- I was never popular, or good at sports.  I never made friends easy.  People to rely on were hard to come by... so you know how I earned friends?  I bought them.  I helped them out.  I was 'generous'.  And in turn, I felt good.

Clearly, people smiling at me meant I was a good person.  People saying 'Thanks!' meant I must have done something right.  I made them happy...that's what 'good people' do, after all, right?    

...except 'good people' don't use others to make themselves feel better.  People aren't really generous, at least I wasn't; not really.  I cover someone for $10 and feel generous.  But what I'm really being is a hypocrite.  I'm not being generous, I'm buying a high.  I'm buying self delusion.  I'm exchanging money for the service of believing I'm a decent person.

And the kicker, the irony is that I'm using someone to do it.  'Good people' don't use others... right?  But that's what we're all doing.  Every charitable deed.  Every 'good act' has a deeper, selfish motive.  

You say it makes you happy to help others but that it is selfish and thus base to do so because you're "using" people.  Consider that by helping or doing things for others that not only do you feel better by having made a difference but that you also made another person's life better.  Your actions have made two people's (your own and another's) better than had you not acted at all.  Really, that's a win win isn't it?  :3   However, if the help you render is only a pretense and you care nothing about the person or (if applicable) their plight then I would agree that that is selfish since I would think that that would darken your soul knowing that you furthered your own purposes by abusing another person.  Surely it is a greater accomplishment to simultaneously benefit both your selves?!  There would be more worth (aka. goodness) in that!  Plus, if you really cared about someone then by hurting them you also hurt yourself since in a sense they are a part of you.  

We like to look down on the Stalins and Hitlers of the world and point out how a dictator or murderer was doing it for himself, despite his or her claims that he or she was doing it for the best of their people, or their country.  I ask you, though, how is that any different than someone that tries to cure diseases or help the homeless?  In both cases, they claim to be doing it to 'help people', while at the end of it all the result is going to be the same:  Their name in a history book and/or people who remember them.  In both cases, ultimately, it's done for themselves.  For fame.  To sleep at night.  Whatever the reason, it's a primal act of selfishness.

(I know less about Stalin so I will discuss in terms of Hitler.)   By forfeiting innocent people's right to exist, Hitler forfeited his own claim to life.  Doctors and social works do self-benefit from the services they provide in the form of monetary compensation but in doing so they better the lives of others in the process, unlike Hitler who's ultimate legacy was destructive and thus "bad" because it did more harm than good and because I think it is pretty clear that Hitler cared for nothing beyond his own ambition.

Still not with me?  Oh, you'll love this:

Love.

Is bullshit.  There.  I said it.  You love someone?  Really?  Why?

Is it because of their looks?  Because of how they make you feel?  What they provide for you?  How they improve your life?  Hey, all those questions are about you, isn't it?

Okay...how about what you do for them?  Oh, wait.  Damn.  That gives you a sense of being needed.  A place to be.  Scratch that then.  

How about this:  How many of you can think of someone that you deeply care about, and want them to be with someone else?  Surely you're not the best person in the world for them.  You have flaws.  There are people out there with less flaws.  I'd bet my money on it...and yet you probably don't want them to leave you for someone else.  

If you don't care about what happens to person you claim to love, then it can't be love.  And what's wrong with feeling good?  That by itself is not a sin!  Plus, you wouldn't like or love someone if they didn't have virtues to be admired now would you?  :3  Also, wouldn't people in love be happier together than apart?  It's would be mutually beneficial after all--a symbiotic relationship!  As for not wanting to be alone--loneliness can be a terrible thing.  Blaming yourself by claiming it is bad for wanting to be happy is misguided; you have as much right to that as any other being.  If you love someone, of course you would want to be with them and they with you because they fill your life with joy!  I suppose that is selfish in a way but realize it's their choice as much as yours.  Forcing the matter against their will would be truly selfish since then you would be ignoring their wishes and well-being--and in such a circumstance you would only 'lust' after them but not 'love' them.  

I think I'm starting to ramble,

That's ok!  I've been known to do that sometimes to!  ;)

We're not good people.  Everyone does things for themselves, even when they pretend they're doing it for someone else.  

Look at the stereotypical movies that centre around love.  Usually you have the love of the protagonist with some douche bag.  The douche bag is popular, and envied by everyone... and yet they're jerks.  Why?  Because they don't need to be 'good' for people to like them.  They don't need to use and buy people.

Then there's the protagonist.  He's overlooked...he's not popular.  He's not envied... but he is the 'good' guy.  He's 'honest'.  He's 'sweet'.  He actually 'cares' about the love of his life.  And in the end, he gets her because she  finally comes around and realizes how 'nice' he is.

So what can we conclude?  If you're not popular, not envied, not good at sports... you can't be a douchebag to get the girl you want.  You've got to buy her with generosity.  You've got to 'care' about her.  And in the end, you get what you want.  

In the end, it's all about you.

If you don't care about your love or your friends than it's not love or friendship.  And if you can make peoples' lives happier and that makes you happy to, then I can't see what's wrong with that!  
Certainly you shouldn't bribe people.  If you like people and you give of your own free will because it makes you happy to make them happy than is it really bribing?  Also, friendship and love is not about money, it is about things like common interests; shared experiences; mutual satisfaction, appreciation, admiration, and respect.  I sort of know what your saying though.  Your saying that you feel that unless you spend lots of money or 'slave away' for other people they wont be your friend.  I don't think you should be expected to spend spend spend or slave slave slave.  If that's the kind of relationship a person's in then that's pretty unbalanced so-called relationship isn't it?  Friendship and love is a partnership isn't it?  :3   Think synergy!  =3

At least, that's how I am.  I try to look out for my friends, I try to care about them, and like to think I protect them.  I try to make them feel good, happier.  

And several times, that's backfired.  I've hurt people.  Made them feel awful or uncomfortable.  And... I've realized that my attempts at trying to do things for them isn't noble or chariable at all.  In fact, it's quite the opposite:  I'm using them.  And I'm not the only person like that.  We're all like that.  We're all selfish, and none of us are actually good people at all.

When all is said and done, it's about us being able to look at ourselves in the mirror and see a 'good' person.

We're angle-beasts as a high-school teacher of mine once put it--capable of great good and also capable of great evil--and in the end, it's the choices we make that matter isn't it?  We've all got our short-comings.  Sid, the fact that you're concerned about morality and asking yourself tough questions means that you're not as selfish as you think.  =3  Plus, if it's any consolation, if it was selfish of you for helping me out by, for instance, driving me downtown to and from some fumeets, then it was selfish of me to enjoy the help :3  So, we're even Steven!  ;)    Sid, honestly, you seem like a good person, and I've never thought of you as selfish.  

Hope that helps!  

~ Feather ~

*Big yawn, Feather going to bed now!  Zzzzz....*

So, no unselfish act is ultimately unselfish?

...Isn't this a revelation you're supposed to have in 9th grade or something?  At the time you think it's the most astounding and deep thing you ever came up with and years later you look back and just facepalm at yourself?  o.O

Or was that just me?

Ashes wrote:Or was that just me?

It's just you.

I considered this at one point but ultimately it always ends up being dismissed as self-fulfilling.
Everything looks lousy if you already believe it's lousy. It just doesn't hold up to rigour.

I dunno, I, personally know that I can be selfish, but I like being able to help people when and where I can, that's just how I am. True that sometime it's in the selfish way that I want that, by helping people, that they will see me as a better friend, therefore improving my social standing with them.

But truely are you guys saying that it's not true that people can be kind just for the sake of being kind, or that the selfishness will always lead it to be in the goal of self-interest.

Should I not help an old lady across the street, or should I not hold the door opened for the person beside me? Should I be careful of walkers on the street that are jaywalking just because the lay tells me to be, or because I honestly do not wish to bring harm to another human being?

Also I must say that there is something that pisses me off, it's people that use that whole point in order to justify being compleat jerks to other people, or people that are mean-spirited just for the point of being.

Example: An here unnamed fur I was with in toronto once with a friend of mine was sitting with us on a bus seat and the person in front of us, I don't remember exactly but had his hand near a crack between two peice of plastic (again sorry to be unspecific) and this fur, out of sheer meanness decided to slam against the piece of plastic, thereby injuring said person.... after getting off the bus he proceeded to brag about it and say how funny the person's pain was. I was so disgusted I turned around and stalked off, so tell me, is this a normal way to act?

Feel free to contest me if I am wrong.

-Viper

You have to be careful here Sid.


1)  Circular logic:
Goal: Determin what drives humans
Hypothesis: All men act upon self interest
... proof ...
Conclusion: All men act upon self interest

This is what is called circular logic.  Your conclusion is the same as your hypothesis.  This is one of the biggest problems with the psychological egoism you're talking about.  It might not be apparent as a flaw when you're talking about philosophy, but being me, I bring everything down to a mathematical level.


2)  Infinite loop:
"All men desire only satisfaction."
"Satisfaction of what?"
"Satisfaction of their desires."
"Their desires for what?"
"Their desires for satisfaction."
"Satisfaction of what?"
"Their desires."
"For what?"
"For satisfaction"
...


3)  Altruism in a selfish act
This one is more about definitions.  You're calling humanity selfish.  Altruistic acts, even in an egoist system, take into concideration other's wellbeings.  Else you might hurt someone and therefor make yourself feel like poop.
So instead of selfish (Which carries a bad connotation with it, and for good reason), a better term to use is "Acting out of self interest".


4)  As for everyone being hypocrites, I realised this "psychological egoism" a while back.  Never gave it a name before my french teacher gave a small lecture on it in class.  The thing is that since this is a metaphysical part of philosophy, people don't pay much attention to it.  You realise it, then you go on with your life because it doesn't change a thing.

I'd go into the love thing but I guess you've said all there is to say about it. ^^  It follows the rest of the rant, really.


Umm, just one last thing.  I'm actually playing devil's advocate by presenting the evidence against psychological egoism.  I actually think that's how I roll.  I can't vouch for everyone else though.  I also realised a long time ago that people's brains work on extremely different wave lengths.  And that the way I work isn't the way everyone else works.  And so maybe some people DO have the capacity to be altruistic without being egoistic.  I'm not though.

I like knowing that I live my life for myself.  I like knowing that every action has a repercussion on myself and that I care enough about my life to make myself feel happy.  I don't see why I should hurt myself in order to make anyone else feel good.  This is my life.  No one else can feel good about MY LIFE.  That's up to me.